Dear Frum from Chicago:
You have made an assumption that we, the bloggers, are in truth Rabbi Gifter. You based the entire rational for your comments, your assessment of the situation and your advice solely on this one major error on your part!
Hard for us to understand how an intelligent person like yourself could have missed the heading of the blog. The one that says in big type: "The Gifters never had and do not have anything to do with this. We are talmidim of Morainu Harav Gifter zt"l!"
Did you not see that? Or do you just assume we are lying, because somehow you have been enlightened with Ruach HaKodesh to know "the truth" even in the face of the facts?
Is it something the city of Chicago adds to the water supply that endows its residents with "Bnei Navi'im" clairvoyance, so that they always "know the facts" even when the facts actually cry out, loudly, you are making a gross error and wrongly suspecting and accusing? It seems to be a machlah in your city! Because you too seem to have developed a case of chronic "don't confuse me with the facts, 'me-a-gadol', & I have already made up my mind" syndrome! And you claim to not even be a Telzer!
So I ask you now to please understand & respect that the purpose of this blog is to reveal the TRUTH – the WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH in face of the bald face lies propagated by Goldberg, Levitansky, Barkin, Scheinbaum & Eisenberg and passed on by hungry gossip mongers like Azoi Pass and Yarokwald.
(NB. Sorry Reb Shlioms - although you are basically a nice guy, who always followed the rules of "live and let live", but here you were nichnas l'bais bursi and unfortunately you know what chazal say about that. ((when you choose to lie down with dogs you end up with fleas)). You should have maintained your standard modus operandi of just learning Torah and staying out of politics. (If you enter into the fire - you have to know you will get burned.)
So Mr. Frum Guy from Chicago please listen very carefully and internalize the following, so that you will better understand the function and purpose of this blog:
To you and all the chachomim u'Bnei Nevi'im b'chol asar v'asar, you who know for sure that the blogger is Reb Zalman himself, or l'chol hapachos under his authorship or direction, and additionally that ALL the comments are (either him or) written by the blogger themselves.
L'hevi yadua we are not RZG, nor do we glean any information from him whatsoever! We don't need to. Whatever we write about is already out there in the open!
1) Whereas Reb Zalmen went to Telshe High School – some of us, in addition to our post high school Yeshiva education at Telshe, also B"H got a good high school secular education. Now with the greatest humility (ok, so maybe NOT the GREATEST?;) we don't believe that Reb Zalman could compose as we do. Do you? Now shouldn't that alone be enough proof for any bar da'as? Additionally, use your sechel please, Reb Zalman is NOT computer savvy and could not possibly know how to run a blog – let alone keep you from finding our identity (a task which we know the "hanhala" has been futilely persuing for months, expending untold manpower and funds on such foolish attempts!). RZG also does not even have access to a computer!
And as to RZG orchestrating what we write. . . .
2) Do you really think he would himself write, or allow us to, concerning his father zt"l in the manner in which we did?
Oh and PLEASE don't make the same immature, absurd projection that the negious blinded fallacious 5 did when Reb Shalom Shapiro admonished them to ask Reb Zalman mechila for falsely accusing him of messira (after the real moiser admitted to Reb Shalom that it was he who was the moiser) and they asininely protested and projected "We still believe it was Zalman and he just got this other person to lie so as to take the blame off of himself.
WHAT A BUNCH OF (NEGIOUS-AFFLICTED) BLIND IDIOTS! So skip the double-reverse-backward flip pop psychology babble of "yeah, takeh – he davka wrote that to try to fool us!" That is just simply inane and narish!
3) Or do you really think RZG would write about himself "RZG is too tough and aggressive" and the Yeshiva may have flourished "in spite of him"?!
4) The comments are written by Public Posters - like yourself - who choose to remain anonymous. We approve or "moderate" them. We do not write comments nor do we author them! We are a group of Talmidim who author the main Blog posts while only a select few who actually write them.
Just as an fyi, did you ever consider that since some of us too live in Cleveland we easily get most of our facts from listening to what those pompous, narcissistic, negious blinded, ba'alei Geiah, gasconade, to anyone who will listen to them brag about their grandiose achievements in the machlokes industry and their industrious chochmos in outsmarting Reb Zalman!
So now that we have cleared up the facts lets get on to your letter. We will quote you and respond.
Excerpts from the original letter from Frum Chicago (If that is realy where he is from!) Guy are printed below in black italics.
Let me start by saying I'm sorry for what you are going through. You have expressed your feelings well in your response to my post. I can't even fathom the hurt you are going through watching your fathers yeshiva be mishandled and abused. However, I must clarify a few things as well about why I wrote what I did.
Your premise is false and therefore a nonstarter. We are not Rabbi Gifter – but we will pass on your sincere(?) expressions of sympathy to him.
[Non-relevant personal aggrandizing history deleted]
If you are trying to win back your fathers Yeshiva and recreate it into the Makom torah it once was, this is not the way to go about that. You are only destroying whatever credibility Telshe ever had by knocking down the current rabeim and making the ones who want it back look like a bunch of crazy zealots on a witch hunt.
Again your false assumptions lead you to anemic advice.
As to Telshe's credibility . . . it is not we who are destroying "the rabbeim's credibility" they are doing that all on their own by ignoring a psak beis din of gedolay hador! A bais din that these very same Telshe rabbeim convened against Reb Zalman - and lost their din Torah!
They are the ones who went to gentile court instead of bringing any supposed "new" development or circumstances back to the their own Beis Din that issued the Pask in the first place! If they claim a clarification is needed, based on a new agreement Reb Zalman signed - then shouldn't they go back to the beis din to seek truth and da'as Torah? It obvious that since the bais din ruled against them - they came up with a "new" twist and ran off to court! Imagine if these guys were mere ba'lei batim. What do you think the olam haTorah or the "Frum from Whatever City" would say about such shinanigins?!
Our purpose here is only to let the world know the truth – to counter the slander sheets that the "Hanhala" sent to thousands of households besmirching Rabbi Gifter with false accusation and downright straight-out lies – and to let the world know the truth!
Now, you profess that defending someone who is being maliciously maligned, crucified, and forced out of his rightful position as "acting like a crazy zealot on a which hunt" obviously we see it differently. We are by no means destroying Telshe's credibility - they clearly don't need our help. Protecting the integrity of the innocent by quashing forced take over by a rebellious few powerful self serving kavod seekers, even publicly, is not "acting carzy"! Neither was Kalev when he presented the truth to klal Yisroel PUBLICLY debunking the lies of the fallacious ten - who also also projected the image of being pious FRUM individuals!
[personal attack against Rabbi Gifter deleted]
What I don't understand, and maybe this is the real issue, is if a Psak was passed down by the beis din and it is not being followed aren't there halachos on how to handle a situation when someone doesn't follow that psak?
Yes there are. But they are hanhagos - not really teeth endowed measures. What would you suggest – that the Bais din write another letter of clarification that the psak din they issued in favor of Reb Zalman stands – even under their falsely proclaimed "new" circumstances of RZG signing a letter of relinquishing of his rights? You are absolutely right! And that is exactly what was done! The bais din issued a new psak saying that nothing has changed and no rights were relinquished by Reb Zalman! ASK US AND WE WILL POST IT FOR ALL TO SEE! Would you suggest the bais din put the chamsanim hanhala in cherem and assur Telshe Yeshiva from giving them aliyos? Ha ha! Please! You profess to be an intelligent person!
Shouldn't you be involving the three big rabbonim that gave the Psak in this situation? Isn't it their job as leaders to do whatever is necessary to insure the rulling is followed? Where are they in this situation? Why aren't they putting these "trouble makers" in chareim or speaking out against them?
They [the bais din] are the Das Torah figures and shouldn't you be following their lead?
YES, actually Reb Zalman does EXACTLY what the members of the Bais Din tell him to do! He for the most part remains quiet and does not confront them (except to defend the interests of the Yeshiva, like calling & denying to the bank that he authorized the falacious 5 to remove his signature from the Yeshiva's accounts!??
He is waiting for them to agree to a Bais Din to go back to – since THEY OBVIOUSLY DO NOT WANT TO RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL BEIS DIN - where they should be going!! GEE I WONDER WHY NOT??!!
DO THEY APPROVE OF THIS BLOG? DO THEY BELIEVE THIS IS THE CORRECT THING TO DO IN THIS SITUATION?
We are pretty sure they do not. But WE didn't ask! If you have a tayna? Have it on US not Reb Zalman! We however believe that we are merely defensively responding to malicious slander etc as we stated above!
[Personal aggrandizement deleted]
Which brings me to my final point. If this is the way the Yeshiva world acts towards one another, then why would I want to be a part of it? The Chillul Hashem is not only being made to the outside world, but an even greater one is being created towards fellow Jews.
Yes, you are right - it is a terrible chillul Hashem! But tell us "Frum Chicago Guy", have you also contacted Rabbi's Levitansky, Goldberg, Eisenberger, Pass and friends? How about Barkin and Scheinbaum? Or is your professed sincerity only one sided and a false projection?
[Personal attack again deleted]
(Frum From Chicago) 2:53 PM
PS. If you are really sincere and want to do something positive – try posing some of the questions from our blog to your friends in Wickliffe! Please ask them how they do the things they do, say the things they say and act the way they act?!
We are always open to your and others input, provided they are clean, decent, non malicious and most importantly factual! We have yet to see ANY comments from anyone (and we do post them all, unless they are indecent etc) that refute ANY of the things we wrote as being the honest true facts! Maybe we are too sharp - and so in order to attract attention - but whatever we post is 100% the EMES!
(Originally posted November 18, 2008 9:58 PM)
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below are comments moved to this post for reference.
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WELL SAID MR MODERATOR !!!!!
November 18, 2008 10:36 PM
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Chicago frummer ,
oh yes very frum . Epstein from Bet Sefer Mizrachi did not spend the day in court today . Epstein had time to coach you how to be a sneak .any body that reads your post can see that you are just one those anti Zalmen people . How do you have the chutzpah to write and address Rabbi Zalmen Gifter as the blogger as if you are sure he is the blogger ? Where did you get you hot tip from ? the gossiping Mrs. Epstein ?
Did Epstien and chevra teach you how to be arrogant, haughty, deceiving ball geivah..
Keep posting your concerns that you are worried about chillul hashem . You have every right to worry as you are making the chillul hashem ... pick on Zalmen , lie about him, write and talk lashen horah about him, cheat him, steal his position in the Yeshiva , do everything possible to ruin him and his family , bring as much tzarr/ suffering as you can on the rebbitzin and of course you are doing this leshem Shomaiyim one thing you are guaranteed hashem watches over the downtrodden and you can not ignore hashem as you do a bes din .Hashem has his ways of dealing with people that so blatantly ignore his torah laws
November 18, 2008 10:44 PM
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To Frum From Chicago,
If you are frum why are you assuming and accusing ??? Why are you writing as if you know positive that Rabbi Gifter is the Bloggger are you a navi or ben navi ?? Is being a ben Navi a Chicago thing ??We know one ben navi in Chicago the Rosh hayeshiva , writer , and editor of the mictav hasheker .
If you are sincere , why not call or write Rabbi Gifter privately?
Why are you expressing your naive and sincere comments on this public forum that you say is a chillul hashem
You know very well that the hanhala with the support of the Chicago Rosh Hayeshiva are in violation of a pesack beis din and injunctions from bes din .. Why don't you go visit the Chicago yeshiva and ask the Rosh Hayeshiva why they are not abiding by a ruling of the beis din ? and while there observe that it is strictly a family business
your final point about how the yeshiva world acts toward each other ...you are acting the same way with your tone, accusations, and assumptions you make on this blog
November 19, 2008 5:20 AM